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http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=23657691


My thoughts go out to the families of the deceased. But what do you guys think? Should people be charged for an accident caused by mother nature? Or should people that go out into the backcountry know that it's dangerous and take the chance?

It's too bad that some call for more "regulation", but at the same time even worse that 2 died.
 

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the regulations dont do anything and its sad that some think they have to baby sit the population. just stupid jack ass from snowmobile federaition said on tv that this might have been privented had there been registraion of sleds. wtf does registration have to do with this?
 

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You go into the back country in winter...people will die. If you choose to go into the back country then you need to be responsible for yourself.
that is probably exactly how the people feel that were invoved but for some reason some idiots think they have to do something about it. i have done a fair amound of sledding. seen smaller avalanches. even got cought in a little one myself. we were prepared and no big deal. i did this becuase of the fun. once it got too scary, i got out of it. i wish the crybaybies would fack right off with the regulations. sleding is not the same as back east here in bc so no need to compare us the them.
 

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Very sad for the famalies but it was bound to happen, avalanche warnings have been given out here (Revy) for the past few weeks..... it should have been postponed.... Lucky for those caught, the local heli-ski operators were operating on the lower slopes & tree lines due to the extreme risks, that's why they were so quick to respond.

Regulations like Alberta.... yer, right.... a significant number of the sledders attending were from Alberta, we see the tow rigs in town all the time, last Sat the place was packed with them..... so what'll that do ?

We wish that they'd just take more care, not saying don't do it but the warnings arn't given out for fun !

This has affected the whole community, the sledders pack up & drive home...... the community doesn't get that option.

And we hear that another 'gathering' is planned for this weekend coming..... to coin an english phrase 'your taking the p'

Just my 2c......
 

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http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=23657691


My thoughts go out to the families of the deceased. But what do you guys think? Should people be charged for an accident caused by mother nature? Or should people that go out into the backcountry know that it's dangerous and take the chance?

It's too bad that some call for more "regulation", but at the same time even worse that 2 died.
Mother nature doesn't ride a hot sled and go high pointing..... when we have extreme avalanche warnings out....
 

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its a trajedy what happened, but people need to held accountable for their own actions, too many people try to pass the buck. they were up in an area known for avalanches in ****ty conditions, everyone has a "won't happen to me attitude" but people need to realise that they can and will get killed. i feel bad for the families.

hopefully this will teach people about reading the conditions and going out prepared.
 

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stupid jack ass from snowmobile federaition said on tv that this might have been privented had there been registraion of sleds. wtf does registration have to do with this?
Is that the same 'jackass' that said 'snowmobilers have the right to ignore back-country warning signs' ......WTF!?!?
 

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If your playing with fire, sooner of later your sure to get burned.

I recognize a the risks when I venture out in the woods no matter what I am doing, hiking, biking, wheeling. some have higher repercussions then others. Snowmobiling, i would consider, the most dangerous! The noise they create generate sound waves, and direct contact creates shock waves. Frozen precipitation is always unstable
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche

Triggers

Avalanches are always caused by an external stress on the snow pack; they are not random or spontaneous events. Natural triggers of avalanches include additional precipitation, radiative and convective heating, rock fall, ice fall, and other sudden impacts; however, even a snow pack held at a constant temperature, pressure, and humidity will evolve over time and develop stresses, often from the downslope creep of the snow pack. Human triggers of avalanches include skiers, snowmobiles, and controlled explosive work. The triggering stress load can be either localized to the failure point, or remote. Localized triggers of avalanches are typified by point releases from solar heated rocks. Remotely triggered avalanches occur when a tensile stress wave is transmitted through the slab to the start zone, once the stress wave reaches the start zone a fracture initiates and propagates the failure. Of exceptional note is that avalanches can not only entrain additional snow within the failing slab, but can also, given the sufficient accumulation of overburden due to a smaller avalanche, step down and trigger deeper slab instabilities that would be more resilient against smaller stresses. The triggering of avalanches is an example of critical phenomenon.



Snowmobiler's can suffer the consequences of an avalanche, just like I can suffer the consequences of a bear attack, or a land slide. (what's more likely to happen!!).

Unless someone financially benefited from organizing an event I don't agree with charges being laid. The registration of sleds would not have prevented this, but someone will benefit ;) Whats next, I have to register my hiking shoes to prevent a bear attack??
 

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Unless someone financially benefited from organizing an event I don't agree with charges being laid. The registration of sleds would not have prevented this, but someone will benefit ;) Whats next, I have to register my hiking shoes to prevent a bear attack??
I agree, and it won't stop there. If these charges get laid and stick, it will set a precedence and beleive me, I don't like using that term (that's how courts seem to work) because a lot of the time comparing one incident to another is just not right. This whole thing could even affect us four wheelers too, I can see it now...all group activities are at risk here.
 

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I agree, and it won't stop there. If these charges get laid and stick, it will set a precedence and beleive me, I don't like using that term (that's how courts seem to work) because a lot of the time comparing one incident to another is just not right. This whole thing could even affect us four wheelers too, I can see it now...all group activities are at risk here.
couldnt agree with you more. dont need to start the trend. sooner or later, we wont be able to hang with our own friends. for the people that are constantly worried about the dangers, i reccomend go to stanly park on your days off.
 

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that is probably exactly how the people feel that were invoved but for some reason some idiots think they have to do something about it. i have done a fair amound of sledding. seen smaller avalanches. even got cought in a little one myself. we were prepared and no big deal. i did this becuase of the fun. once it got too scary, i got out of it. i wish the crybaybies would fack right off with the regulations. sleding is not the same as back east here in bc so no need to compare us the them.

Sass,

The reality is, no matter how much you and I might disagree with "them" (hey, we AGREE on something!), that there is a significant portion of society who feel that people who engage in dangerous behavior need to be regulated. I heard on the radio this morning that 80% of respondents to a poll thought that the backcountry should be subject to closure in the winter-time when snow conditions suggested an avalanche hazard.

80%.

This is exactly the same mind-set that we face collectively in our own recreational hobby.

In a democratic (notice that I didn't say "free and democratic" - 'cause the freedom part of it is becoming so eroded that we'll soon be approaching Singaporian principles) society majority rules. As more and more of the population comes to believe that urban living is the cat's meow, people who enjoy the wilderness will be further marginalized.

You'll have to drive to the Yukon to enjoy an outing on a de-activated forest service road.
 

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hmm. i was hoping we agree on more than one thing.


maybe its time take charge. its one thing to survey the actual people that are involved in the activity but i cant stand it when you ask any fool of the street what they think of something that they have no clue of. even worse is when a pencil neck behind a desk thinks they have to make the decisions for you.


a few mounths back on one of the threads here, Wil asked me why i got out of selding and my responce was that it just got too scarey. i like to be able to have that choice in the future.
 

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How about banning city folk from leaving the city, not allowing them to hear any news of what's going on outside their bubble, and letting the rest of the world live their lives in peace? Seems like 80% of them don't want to leave their bubble anyways, so why are they trying to force it on everyone else?

Sometimes you just gotta take risks in life. I also agree is was a little foolish and my condolences to the families of those involved, but these two men died doing what they loved to do. Can no one respect that? It wouldn't bother me any, I'd much rather go in a bear mauling or an avalanche than being t-boned in an accident downtown Vancouver, or being stabbed for my wallet by some crackhead. At least in the latter two events I can try to fight back the way I know best. Just my .02. LR
 

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the problem is, when people do this stuff and something happens where people get hurt or die then these people and their families start sueing the gov't and anyone else they can find just to grab some cash.

if they make it illegal and start charging some people then this takes away their ability to sue.

why do you think so many fsr's have signs that say "road closed" or "road deactivated". this way anyone responsible for that road takes liability off themselves.

i agree with tmax but at the same time there are just too many people out that figure someone else is constantly looking out for them. if something happens then it's always going to be the fault of someone else because someone should have been looking out for them. the general population no longer has the responsiblity to look out for themselves so someone has to.

with the way our laws are changing now, you now have the potential to get criminally charged with drinking and driving after rinsing your mouth out with scope because there are no minimum amounts for the legal limit. this ensures our public safety.

there is a popular page on facebook called "canadians for public safety". this to me means canadians making sure everything you do is supervised by someone else "smarter" than you. if that person feels you are being unsafe then it should be stopped. it seems to me that this is what the general population wants.
 

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Here is the current report from the Avalanche centre..... http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/bulletins/cac-forecasts/south-columbia/

Who would go out high marking then ?

Report on the incident here.... http://www.avalanche.ca/Default.aspx?DN=ac60b29a-6eaa-40a2-8ea9-373138567eba

We emigrated to Canada to get away from a society that had started to regulate your hobbies to the extreme.... so, we have first hand knowledge of what it's like and we don't want it here !

All we ask is that you read the cautions/warnings and act accordingly..... as noted above, high marking was rather foolish under the conditions that day.

As I noted before, it doesn't just affect those caught in the incident, it affects the community. My friend help unload the injured at the airport and one of the bodies from the chopper.... he's an ex-fireman with many years of full time service, so he's seen his fair share of bad accidents & incidents. Still upset him though..... my hat off to all those that went out on the rescue.

I'll be buying him a beer or two tonight !
 

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I find this whole thing kind of laughable.

The comments on the news websites are down right funny.

The people that were involved in this were the best. One went on to rant how they take survival training and most that day had GPS locator beakons (I guess these were the SPOT thingys?) for when things go bad. People like that just need to be billed for the rescue. Primary reason for getting one of those beacons is for emergencies, but when you use it as a safety blanket.... its a self induced emergency. Besides, just about anywhere that I may have thought a beacon would have been handy... well, it would be only useful for locating my body.

I could go either way on the licensing and registering. I have seen the improvements to boating over the phase in period. It took a bit of steam out of the yahoo factor. but its still there, much like a regular automobile driving license.
 

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Silverback
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the problem is, when people do this stuff and something happens where people get hurt or die then these people and their families start sueing the gov't and anyone else they can find just to grab some cash.

if they make it illegal and start charging some people then this takes away their ability to sue.

why do you think so many fsr's have signs that say "road closed" or "road deactivated". this way anyone responsible for that road takes liability off themselves.

I don't see any problem at all with someone bringing a law suit against another person to have a dispute resolved. If the 'injured' people don't have a case, then it's dismissed and they pay the costs of the proceeding to the Defendant. In most instances it has nothing to do with a "cash grab" - it's two entities that have an issue with one another. Rather than someone heading out to shoot or lynch the organizers of the event (or some other presumably "responsible" party), a law suit is commenced and a judge decides whether there is liability, or not.

Charging people doesn't take away anyone's ability to sue. Not quite sure where you're going with your statement. The criminal law and civil law are separate systems. One (civil) relates to rights as between citizens, and the other (criminal) relates to rights between State and citizen.

Read through the Occupiers' Liability Act and you'll see that the Crown (and others) doesn't "need" to post "road de-activated" signage for purposes of attenuation of liability.

The "standard of care"/duty owed to people in wilderness areas is pretty narrow: you're only liable if you create a danger with an intent to do harm, or show a reckless disregard for the safety of a legitimate visitor/user. Section 3.

http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document...t rsbc 1996 c. 337/00_96337_01.xml#section8
 

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Go ahead and charge buddy for whatever, as he new of the dangerous conditions and held the event anyways. But if the charges go ahead, then you need to charge every single participant, as they sure knew the conditions just as the event organizer did.

Funny to hear that 80% of (city folk?) want more regulations. What percentage of us back country folk know the risk? The danger? Know how to take care of themselves? Have ever had problems? I'd wager a very small percentage, so stick it you city folk!

I'm with Wes, the bill of search and rescue needs to go to the people that got rescued. This in itself opens up a whole wack of other problems, but I feel it is the best way to deal with it. Registration of equipment might help, but education should be #1.

Why have a back country if you can't enjoy it as it is. :shakehead:



 

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Post from another site. The similarities to 4x4ing are glaring:

It’s time to honor the heros.
Written by Susie Rainsberry
March 15, 2010

It’s been several days now since the tragic avalanche at Turbo Hill. The latest reports are that two are deceased and three are still hospitalized. The media is also reporting that there were 200 snowmobilers at Turbo at the time of the slide. The avalanche is reported to have been up to 150 meters wide and 10 meters deep. That, my friends, is a BIG avalanche!

I’d like to put some perspective on this – a snowmobiler’s perspective. Apparently no one in the media is a snowmobiler or is concerned about taking the time to gather the facts – not just the bad, but the good as well. And there is good to be heard in this story. If you ask a snowmobiler – they’d be able to tell you what that is. But either the media isn’t asking, or has heard it and doesn’t feel that the facts are newsworthy.

However, I feel these facts are the MOST newsworthy topic of this entire tragedy.

Saturday afternoon, following the close of the events for the annual Big Iron Shootout, a large group of snowmobilers headed to Turbo Bowl to make a run at the hill. As the riders lined up at the bottom of the hill, the mass of spectators parked their sleds and prepared to enjoy the show. As one of the sleds turned out towards the top, the hillside gave way. Thundering down the mountain it came – taking sleds and riders with it. This powerful act of nature happens in a split second. There is no time to react.

The time to react is as soon as it stops. And react – with speed and knowledge – in the midst of chaos – is what those sledders did. There were no typical first responders to this catastrophe in the immediate moments following the avalanche. Only snowmobilers. Those same snowmobilers that the media is painting with a broad stroke as crazy, ignorant, thrill-seekers.

As a back country snowmobiler myself, I can tell you that ignorant is not a word that I would use to describe those survivors. I would call them heroes! And justly so. In the midst of what may have been the most terrifying minutes of their lives, they turned their avalanche beacons to search, they got out their probes and their shovels and they started rescue protocols IMMEDIATELY – likely while in a state of shock. They dug out those that were buried, they triaged the injured, they administered first aid, they built fires to keep them warm until the helicopters arrived. These people were heroic!! Without their quick and educated responses, many more people would have died.

I am angered that the media is so eager to report this story that they are being so disgraceful to the victims and survivors. These people need support and compassion. They do not need to be stereotyped and degraded in the media or by anyone else. Shame on you!! Didn’t your mother teach you better manners than that?

I’m not done though – there is way more information about snowmobilers in respect to the Big Iron Shootout and Revelstoke that the media hasn’t covered yet. While they gleefully report that this is an unsanctioned (I’ll get to that in a moment) event drew 200 sledders (despite the grave warnings from the avalanche center), what they aren’t telling you is that there are likely double that number of snowmobilers who DIDN’T attend this year’s event – because of the conditions. Snowmobilers who DID heed the warnings.

As I was reading the snowmobiling forums and Facebook on Saturday evening, the same story continued to repeat itself – people concerned about friends who generally attend the BIS, those friends checking in and saying they didn’t go this year, or they were in the area but avoided Turbo Bowl because of the warnings and the conditions they were already aware of. You see, back country snowmobilers are often in the back country two or more days a week and already have first hand insight to the conditions.

Regarding the word being used in almost every story – unsanctioned. It is true that there is no sanctioning organization for this event. Not the town of Revelstoke nor the Revelstoke Snowmobile Club. However, just because it’s not sanctioned does not mean that it is illegal.

Snowmobilers often gather in large groups to ride with friends who are generally dispersed all over Canada and the United States. I personally rode with a group of 30 riders at an “unsanctioned” event in Wyoming. Oops! I also rode at another “unsanctioned” event, ummm, better make that two, here in Oregon. Rest assured, I am not a criminal nor are any of the snowmobilers that I know.

The internet keeps the snowmobiling community connected. There are 1,000s of unsanctioned events that simply start by someone saying, “hey – who wants to ride this weekend?” Next thing ya know, word spreads about how much fun everyone had and it snowballs from there (pun intended). They grow into these annual events…”same date next year?”

So, here’s what happens next – the date is set. Motel rooms are reserved. Trucks and sleds are fueled. Vacation time is requested. Then individuals, families and social groups all head into a remote mountain town. They buy. They buy. They buy a lot!! They spend money – because they can.

It is with great sadness that I have to dispel the myth that mountain snowmobilers are a bunch of ********. All you really need to do is add up the costs to outfit an individual – much less an entire family – with a sled and the proper safety gear. Since this article is really targeted at those individuals who are not mountain sledders, I will point out that everything – got that?…EVERYTHING, on your person and on your sled is part and parcel of your survival gear. From your gloves, to your coat, to the sunglasses in your backpack. Trying to save a dime in buying a coat is really not advised, when that coat may be the only thing protecting you from the elements if you have to stay overnight. With all that said, here’s a run down of estimated costs of the primary accessories needed to sled in the back country.

• Sled $6,000-$14,000 USD
• Clothes (including base, mid and outer layers – top & bottom) $800-$1,200 USD
• Boots/gloves/helmet $245-$800 USD
• Backpack (non-avy) $60-$120 USD
• Backpack (avy) $1,000-$1,200 USD
• Body armor (tek vest, knee pads, etc) $60-$300 USD
• Beacon, probe, shovel $250-$400 USD

This doesn’t include a lot of items, such as matches, radios, compass, fire starter, flashlight, and the list goes on, and the costs add up. It would be GREATLY appreciated if the media would STOP perpetuating the myths that sledders are ignorant, beer-swilling, couch-potatoes. Because it’s simply not true.

The fact is that mountain sledders do not fit a stereotypical mold. They come from all areas of the business world…from CEOs to millworkers. They have families and they are single. They are old and they are young. They are world-class athletes and they are physically handicapped. They survive corporate down-sizing, cancer, divorces, etc….just like everyone else.

The thing that binds us together is our great love for the back country in the winter. We are modern day adventurers. We want to get out there – in the mountains. We want to explore and play and wonder at the beauty. We love the snow! When it covers the trees, when it flies up in our faces, when it gives us a playground of vast proportions. That is when we are in heaven. That is when our souls glow.

We are not anything that the media will have tried to make us out to be in the last couple of days. We are so much more. It’s truly a pity that the media isn’t interested in shining any light on the truth.

The truth is - the Turbo Bowl avy survivors are HEROS. We in the snowmobiling communities – far and wide – are praying for the full recovery of those injured, in body and in spirit. And finally, with great compassion and sympathy we extend our heartfelt condolences to the families of those who perished.

I wrote this and I am Susie Rainsberry, Oregon resident, back-country snowmobiler. I provide free and complete liberty for others to share and disperse this message. The time has come to stop the slandering of good individuals just because they ride snowmobiles.
 
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