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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Planning for upgrade. Questions:

Can a IFS Yota rear be used for a Zuk?
Did the IFS rears have disc brakes?
Typically what gear ratio are Yota rears?
Do you use Yota driveshafts to mate with your Zuki transfercase,and what needs to be done ,drill the flanges?
What type of leafs do people use with this upgrade,can Zuki springs be used?
For the front : how do you make the steering work? Most of all was it worth it? :)
 

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I am in the middle of a complete toyota swap into my 410. Do a search on pirate4x4 and that will give you all the info you will ever need to do the swap.

I wish I could give you info but my setup is completly diffrent that what you might be doing. Let me do some searching for info and I will post later.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
um K.
 

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webwheeling...
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toy swapping

Answers in order of how they were asked.

IFS toy can be used in the back of a zuk but it is wider than a Mini Truck front or rear axle. The reason some toy swappers use an IFS diff is that they shorten the passenger side to move the pig from the center to offset (I think it's moved 3"). This leaves you with a matching set Front and Rear (width wise) and closes the gap between the sami offset rear output on the t'case and the centered diff (still off by almost 2").

I don't think the IFS came with disks. The toy drums are so big that you won't need disks (unless you want the "self cleaning" funcion of disks in mud)

gear ratios, stock are typically 4.10's, but some MT's have 4.30's and 3.90's (-- I think -- I'm not a toy expert)

Toy d-shaft -- yes, even if you don't run toy diffs you should be running a shortened toy CV shaft from the front of a toy in your sami.

You need a 88 1/2 or newer output flange for your t'case. Depending on the toy shaft you have some are the exact same bolt pattern, others are different (No one seems to know which years / models are what -- I fluked out and got one that was the same -- no I won't give it to you). If it's different you must redrill. All toy shafts require some machining to the flange, the t'case output flange or your d shaft spacers to work together as they are a bit bigger than the sami unit.

Suspension is up to you. You can use anything you want from stock springs to WHY depending on how much work you want to do. You will have to reposition the spring pads no matter what.

Steering = crossover steering from any one of the toy aftermarket parts manufacturers (or OTT). The only adaption needed here is to the zuk pitman arm or that end of the drag link. Better yet do a toy IFS box PS swap.

Was it worth it? Any upgrade from stock is worth it. It jst depends how much you value your cash vs. performance. You will never break them (except maybe the occasional birf -- depending on tire size and how you drive) but the diffs and rear axles will survive almost anything a zuk can put out.

Do I have toy diffs? No, but it's amazing what you can learn when you :read ! :D Pirate is an amazing resource when you do your own research first.
 

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Good post, Shogunator, except this part:

quote:
you should be running a shortened toy CV shaft from the front of a toy in your sami.

This is not the set up for a compound angle. You are dealing with a vertical and a horizontal angle- even if the offset is only 2"

A cv is only used properly if there is a 0 degree angle at the other end of the shaft, thats why people will point the pinion directly at the tcase when they use a cv (or are supposed to anyway).

With an offset, there is no way to run a 0 degree at the back on both planes (vertical and horizontal) Even if you point the pinion at the tcase output, it will still be off to one side.

For a compound angle you must use one u-joint per side and make sure your angles are all equal (pinion and t case) and less than 30 degrees. In other words, don't rotate the pinion up.:D

Of course, if there is no compound angle (ie: you are still using the stock axles) then a cv is a great idea-particularly with a big lift.Just remember to point the pinion up.

******* engineering at its finest:*******
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Was not aware of that Pirate site, I'll do some reading.

A shortened toy CV shaft, use in Sammi: I am assuming a Front? Toy shaft gets cut down and used in Zuki rear?

What gets used up front on the Zuk? A rear Toy shaft?any mods to it?

I am confused:confused: Breather , with the compound angle. Are you saying it is best to leave the rear pinion angle at 0 degrees with a yota axle installed with a Zuk transfercase?

I thought 'pointing' the pinion up excessively, was bad anyways-starving the gears of oil and lotsa vibes.

Some toys had a double cardan driveshaft? Would this solve the compound angle prob?.

When I line up the toy assemblies under my 410, will I be looking at moving the perches in? or out? A 3/8 inch plate must be put on top of drivers side spring perch to compensate for the uneven toy front springs ,this true?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
.
 

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Breather...

Techinically speaking you are correct, there would be a compound angle, but from what I've read and heard from my buddies down in the states that have done this, it hasn't 'caused them any troubles regardless. Really it isn't any different than running a set of dana 44's in a jeep (try and line up a "centered" d44 and a "centered" d300!) 'cause it's off on two planes as well. I know the proper set up would be as described but I thought I should just point out that it still works w/o vibration or u joint failure... (unless of course you aren't running an anti wrap provision)

Monster,
Oil starvation would be a problem if you have your pinion upwardly pointed at an extreme angle or you haven't "adjusted" your fluid level to compensate for the upward rotation. Kind of like clocking a t'case.

Potentially a double cv could "solve" the problem but running a CV on the bottom of the shaft is pretty bulky which may cause you more problems on the trail.

Most toy swappers run a custom long slip driveshaft up front because the suspension they have makes both the toy and sami stuff inadequate.

With your 410, no matter what diff you put under it, you will need to move the perches in... I do recall people using a plate in the front to compensate for the unequal heights.

As for Pirate, DO NOT ask about toy swapping until you have burnt out the search button. They will :spam you into submission! :*******
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Re: Breather...

Shogunator said:
Techinically speaking you are correct, there would be a compound angle, but from what I've read and heard from my buddies down in the states that have done this, it hasn't 'caused them any troubles regardless. Really it isn't any different than running a set of dana 44's in a jeep (try and line up a "centered" d44 and a "centered" d300!) 'cause it's off on two planes as well. I know the proper set up would be as described but I thought I should just point out that it still works w/o vibration or u joint failure... (unless of course you aren't running an anti wrap provision)

Monster,
Oil starvation would be a problem if you have your pinion upwardly pointed at an extreme angle or you haven't "adjusted" your fluid level to compensate for the upward rotation. Kind of like clocking a t'case.

Potentially a double cv could "solve" the problem but running a CV on the bottom of the shaft is pretty bulky which may cause you more problems on the trail.

Most toy swappers run a custom long slip driveshaft up front because the suspension they have makes both the toy and sami stuff inadequate.

With your 410, no matter what diff you put under it, you will need to move the perches in... I do recall people using a plate in the front to compensate for the unequal heights.

As for Pirate, DO NOT ask about toy swapping until you have burnt out the search button. They will :spam you into submission! :*******
Shogunator : So essentially what your saying is that using a front toy driveshaft in the rear on the zuk after toy axles are in works fine for most guys.

What angle do most swappers use for the rear pinon?

How is the toy driveshaft that gets used in the rear modified, can this be done at home?

From what I'm geting so far is breaking a toy- Birf, once the swap is done would take alot effort.(running 33's) Main reason for swapping over from smaller 410 stuff in first place.


Problem with pirate is they should put it all together in an FAQ. :)
 

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swamp monster said:
Planning for upgrade. Questions:

Can a IFS Yota rear be used for a Zuk?
Did the IFS rears have disc brakes?
Typically what gear ratio are Yota rears?
Do you use Yota driveshafts to mate with your Zuki transfercase,and what needs to be done ,drill the flanges?
What type of leafs do people use with this upgrade,can Zuki springs be used?
For the front : how do you make the steering work? Most of all was it worth it? :)
I did a Toy axle swap in my SJ410. I used a 88' Rear and a 82' front. I made my own disk swap for the rear. Stock gears in the early trucks (79-83) were 3.90,4.10,4.11,and 4.38. I dont remember the years that they came in anymore, sorry. When I ran the SJ case I ran a front Toy CV in the rear without any problems and a rear in the front. You can have the Zuk flange center machiened larger to fit the Toy male face of the d-shaft. Then turn the holes 180 to the other holes and drill them in the Zuk flange. I built all of my own purches to fit the 2" wide springs of the Zuk. I as well left the front springs inboard. The big problem with this is that the pass spring sits right on top of the pumpkin. It is much easier to just move the springs out onto the Toy purches. I used a IFS Toy PS box on mine and a Aqualu steering arm and cut and retaped a tierod down to size.
Was it worth it?
You tell me.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Re: Who's has done yota swaps?

Mr.Zuki said:


I did a Toy axle swap in my SJ410. I used a 88' Rear and a 82' front. I made my own disk swap for the rear. Stock gears in the early trucks (79-83) were 3.90,4.10,4.11,and 4.38. I dont remember the years that they came in anymore, sorry. When I ran the SJ case I ran a front Toy CV in the rear without any problems and a rear in the front. You can have the Zuk flange center machiened larger to fit the Toy male face of the d-shaft. Then turn the holes 180 to the other holes and drill them in the Zuk flange. I built all of my own purches to fit the 2" wide springs of the Zuk. I as well left the front springs inboard. The big problem with this is that the pass spring sits right on top of the pumpkin. It is much easier to just move the springs out onto the Toy purches. I used a IFS Toy PS box on mine and a Aqualu steering arm and cut and retaped a tierod down to size.
Was it worth it?
You tell me.....
On the front how would you move the existing 410 springs out to 'meet' with the toy perches aren't you limited by the width of the frame?:)
 

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We did it to a friends SJ. We did a shackle reversel and basicle built front hangers that look alot like the Toy SAS swap hangers. The only downfall with this is you end up having the same tire to sprin rub as Toyotas have. I didn't want that on mine. At full lock with my Boggers I have over 2" to the springs. Yes it can be hard on Burfs but with the lighter truck it is not as much of an issue. I havent had mine out alor but what I have done if I did it in my Toy I would have broken one. My buds truck is abused way more and he hasn't broken one yet, but his steering is limited by the springs. He is running 38" SX's.
 

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quote:
I am confused Breather , with the compound angle. Are you saying it is best to leave the rear pinion angle at 0 degrees with a yota axle installed with a Zuk transfercase?

You should have equal angles at the pinion and transfer case (that ain't gonna be a zero)

quote:
Some toys had a double cardan driveshaft? Would this solve the compound angle prob?.

A double cardan joint is the correct name for the cv joint used in the front driveshaft of toyota 4x4's. At stock height the pinion is aimed at the tcase. It is essentially two ujoints with a pivot in the middle. A cv will last longer at a steeper angle than a u joint, however the max angle of operation is less than that of a single u joint. So in short-no. Use a rear yota driveshaft cut down- just one u joint a side, and way stronger than the stock zuki.

quote:
I know the proper set up would be as described but I thought I should just point out that it still works w/o vibration or u joint failure... (unless of course you aren't running an anti wrap provision)

I hear ya Shogunator, but if he has to make a driveshaft anyway, he may as well make the proper one (probably less money than a cv type shaft anyway) Even with a little vibration(cv style), it would take a long time for a zuki to wear out a yota size u joint. I still maintain that there will be some sort of vibration using a cv in an offset application- if it is little enough for you to stand then ok but it will vibrate.

I actually have done the opposite. I built a 4.3/th350/yota tcase and sammi axles so the output of the case was centered and the diff was offset. I had a persistent vibration untill I ditched the yota cv shaft.
 

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I as well ditched my cardon joint rear in favor of a single joint rear. When I installed my Toy case the CV was maxed stock but after I modded the CV it was ok. It just didnt have enuff droop for my suspension travel. I built a single long eared (86' up shafts I believe) which gives me lots of droop, but I do have a viberation under acceleration but normal driving it is fine. When I do the 4.3L swap I am going to move everything forward abought 2" and drop it 1" more. I think the Suzuki case works great with a CV.

We have allways set rear axles to have a straight line pointing to the t-case, after that it is up to the u-joint or cv to make up for the angle at the t-case. As for the front we set them for 3deg off the top knuckle toward the rear(Caster?) and if the d-shaft is way off a cut and turn is done. SWB trucks are more prone to needing this as the front shaft is really short.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Apparently some info I got is that the compound angle caused by the centered Toy diff and Offset Zuk t-case does not have any effect on vibes along as the diff and t-case are on parallel planes.



So from what I'm reading here, a front toy CV shaft will get used in the rear when I swap and it needs to be cut down (shortened). Can I do this at home, if so how, and will it need re-balancing?Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
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Lars did a writeup in here somewhere abought doing a home made d-shaft.... I have done it with good luck. The shorter the shaft the less perfect it has to be but for the $50 is cost's to have it done right, it is probably worth just having some one do it. It is usually $50 a weld. At least that is what I pay around here. I am sure if you did a search it would come up with something or you could post it in the Fab section....
 

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Pay to get it done

AS much as I like to do everytihng myself I'd pay to have the shaft done, it just isn't worth the headaches of doing it yourself (especially since you still need a lathe to balance it!) Basically when you are done (if you haven't lengthened your wheelbase) you will end up with the slip butted up against the CV with and 1.25-1.5" of tube between them (if only I had my digital at home!). Since the shaft is so "short" it is difficult to balance. So in other words, get it done and save the brain pain for another part of your truck. ;)

Mr Zuki's prices look bang on from what I've experienced.

I actually have done the opposite. I built a 4.3/th350/yota tcase and sammi axles
:eek:
I'm hoping in your next sentence you are going to say you swapped out the sami diffs for something way beefier! I'm in the process of a 4.3L/700r4/underdrive/d300 swap with dana 44's for the diffs into my zuk. Hereing your swap it makes me feel a little bit better about the dana 44's holding up! :)
 

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quote:
I'm hoping in your next sentence you are going to say you swapped out the sami diffs for something way beefier! I'm in the process of a 4.3L/700r4/underdrive/d300 swap with dana 44's for the diffs into my zuk. Hereing your swap it makes me feel a little bit better about the dana 44's holding up!

Yeah yota diffs were going to be the next step, but I really didn't like the feel of the truck after it was done. The nose was heavy and the whole thing felt unbalanced. It was cool to be able to chirp a set of 33's under a sami, but the gas mileage pi$$ed me off. It had lost its sami character, and became quite unfun. I ran this way for probably a year, and never broke anything except sami u joints until I upgraded the shaft. It was locked in the back only and there is no rock crawling in Kamloops, just lotsa mud.

Your buildup will probably be indestructible, but real heavy- maybe not a bad thing for rocks. I now prefer the keep it light methodology, then I don't have to upgrade to bigger, heavier more expensive stuff. My present '91 will be getting a 1600 16valve, 'kick trans, 'kick tcase, sammi lobsterized case and either stock or yota axles with 33's (maybe 35's if I go yota) This way I can rev around 3300 RPM on the highway and still have over 100:1.
 

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Mouth Breather said:
quote:
Your buildup will probably be indestructible, but real heavy- maybe not a bad thing for rocks. I now prefer the keep it light methodology, then I don't have to upgrade to bigger, heavier more expensive stuff.
So what is light too you? :confused: With the Sami axles, 1600, and 33's my truck weighed 1900lbs. With the Yota axles ,coiled rear, and 16/35 Boggers it weighed 2100lbs. As for the 4.3, coils front and auto I figure it will hit 2400lbs. I still think that is light with a full cage made of seamless wall DOM tubeing. Seeing as it was 50/50 weight distribution with the 1600, it should be fairly close, 60/40 I figure.


Mouth Breather said:
quote:
My present '91 will be getting a 1600 16valve, 'kick trans, 'kick tcase, sammi lobsterized case and either stock or yota axles with 33's (maybe 35's if I go yota) This way I can rev around 3300 RPM on the highway and still have over 100:1.
I have allready been there and gotten rid of a 200hp 1600 DOHC and found that it really didnt have what "I" was looking for in a all around trail rig. Note I said "I". It did work very well but could be better. :D You will find that it is not going to be as good on the HWY as you think... 35's and driving a "wall" into the wind takes alot of HP. I thought mine would be much better with 5.71's and the SJ case but hitting 100kmh was all it would do in 4th gear and reved to the 9's! Forget abought 5th to hold it up there... It takes HP to run big tires. This is my opinion from my experiance with big tires.

Mouth Breather said:
quote:
Yeah yota diffs were going to be the next step, but I really didn't like the feel of the truck after it was done. The nose was heavy and the whole thing felt unbalanced.
I personally think unsprung weight is better than sprung.... Sounds like you didnt get the spring rate right. If you added one full legnth leaf to the pack it might have carried the truck better. Otherwise it would feel sloppy. I built my front packs using a set of Scout fronts and mixing springs. Didn't dip or dive on the road but limited the articulation. The more weight that is low the more stable your truck should be, meaning either the Toy axles or D44's and larger tires. And you gain width which as well will make it more stable on sidehills. Sometimes you have to give a little ride quality or articulation to gain other things. You have to figure out the best ballance for your personal preferance. Your the one driving the truck and have the best seat feel for what you want. Do you want articulation and soft ride or do you want if to feel stable? The type of shocks and the angle you put them at as well changes the ride and handling. I personally like Doechtech (sp) as they have the same compress rate as retract rate. Try that with your Rancho shockes. :eek: Compresses easy and retract... Well, you figure it out. :rolleyes: Yes they are cheaper but save your money on the name and buy Monroe if your going to buy them.

Basicly as I have said before in other postes you have to figure out what you want the truck to do for you... Rocks, Mud, Trails, Street, etc... It is easy to buy kits and bolt them on and know what they have done for everyone else. But when it comes to fabing stuff, there is alot of trial and error. I have spent hours building coil suspensions to only toss it into the corrner and end up with leaf springs under the front of my truck. Now I am going to use most of what I built but rebuild some of it diffrent with other ideas.

Anyway, as I have said this is only my opinion. You done have to agree with it, but I have done abit of fabrication. I dont think I am great at it but I am willing to try stuff out. If it doesnt work... I havent paid someone anything to do it so I havent lost anything.

Well thats enugh for tonight I think.... :D
L8R
 
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